9:57 PM
V: a feeling of destiny is terrible
what a miserable existence
me: a life without purpose is miserable
V: sure
but these two do not span the space of all lives
there is a very healthy and pleasant middle ground between living under the burden of some oppressive, nationalistic destiny and living as an empty, nihilist
me: yes, I never said the destiny is oppressive
V: a lot of it seems to come out that way
like all these myths of japanese and korean exceptionalism
i think the west has a strong drive for positive self-improvement
i think this results in people living very contented and fulfilling lives
me: what is that drive?
V: i don't knko0w
me: many have said it originated from its religion
V: at some point, yes
But I don't think modern, American manifestations of organised religion have any aspect of real self-improvement.
Those movements have been poisoned by politics.
It's all a mess of identity and reactionism and political machinations.
me: so what is the wellspring of the west's contemporary culture?
V: Wasn't the Enlightenment particular in its appeal to more rational, humanistic modes?
Like, without some explicit religious motiviation.
I do not deny that religion can be a powerful force, and, as I said before, I really do enjoy stories about its transformative effects.
Like the Bible stories I have shared with you - I really get a lot of inspiration from some of these.
me: I've come to understand the enlightenment and liberal humanism as a gradual evolution of science, commerce, government, and philosophy when they are mobilized toward improving and extending human life
but much of that original impetus has vanished
V: I think that people in the US, for all of their angst, are often still many times better off than people elsewhere.
It was interesting, though - I was reading this blog of this TW girl I barely know, and it almost had developmental and social angst as an aesthetic.
me: pretty pedestrian these days
V: Yeah, but it's particular manifestation here was interesting.
V: The author was talking about this frustration in building herself into some idealisation of (Western) modernity, but my impression of her in person is that this was just purely an aesthetic.
It's true that we already see a lot of sad poets. But here, it was, like, extending this to less emotional and more ideological issues. Like, feminist angst as an aesthetic. Talking about wanting to be a professional woman and wanting to develop ones self along these related axis but as just a stance or appeal to some social expectation. As though these expressions were just appeasing some sense that that's what you're supposed to want and be like. But there is no real substance, much less follow-through, to either the expression or the social expectation.
It's like - all of these modernisation complaints we may level against TW - if these had then become incorporated into the TW psyche as self-excoriations, but merely as an affected aesthetic.
